Caring for Women who Struggle with Porn

Kay >> Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries podcast and video series. Today, our special guest is Dr. Joy Skarka, who is on the Authentic Intimacy Team. She has been doing that since 2020 and she has built there a transformational ministry for women dealing with sexual shame and pornography. So welcome, Joy. We are so delighted that you were able to join us.

Joy >> Oh, thank you, Kay. I just love the resources that you’re creating, and I’m glad to be here.

Kay >> Oh, thank you so much. Joy previously has joined us for a podcast and video on rape culture. So if you missed that, you might want to look back for that. Today, though, we are talking about caring for women struggling with porn. And Joy actually has a book coming out about that. It is going to be called Her Freedom Journey: A Guide Out of Porn and Shame to Authentic Intimacy. When does that book come out, Joy?

Joy >> Yes, this July, July 2024. How come, Kay, we always get the hard topics on these podcasts, right?

Kay >> Yes.

Joy >> These are some hard topics that we’re covering.

Kay >> It really is. And I really wanted to start really by talking about how in the world you got involved in ministering to women who struggle with porn.

Joy >> Right. It’s not something people normally raise their hand and volunteer and say, hey, I want to talk about porn and helping women.

Joy >> You don’t see a lot of women talking about it. So I’d love to just share a little bit of my story. And I think to sum it all up, God, took my pain point and made it my passion. He really just brought me to this place where I just had this burning desire to help other women because I couldn’t find that help. And so flash back, I was in college and I had just experienced a date rape, which is kind of why we talked about rape culture on the last episode. So this is a follow up to my story there.

But I had experienced that trauma and I lacked a sex education, so I had no idea kind of what had happened, what was going on. And so that brought me to Google, which is a bad sex educator. And I started typing in my questions, and that’s what led me to pornography. And so it started as a sex education, but then became my coping mechanism when I was struggling with the trauma, the grief, loneliness, stress, really anything. That’s what I turn to. And I was exposed in fifth grade so I was 11 years old. A friend showed it to me, but then it wouldn’t be an issue in my life until later in college.

Kay >> So I think most people don’t think that this is a struggle for women. They really consider that men are the ones who watch pornography, are addicted to pornography. But I have heard that the number of women is growing quite a bit. What can you tell us about that?

Joy >> Yeah, this historically has been known as, talked about as, a men’s issue. And we know that since the Internet has come, it just has made access to pornography way easier, more accessible, on your phone. You have your phone everywhere you go. And so those numbers have increased for women. And one of the largest porn sites, I’m not going to say their name, but they actually release a year in review every year where they share their statistics, which I find fascinating that they share all this, but they share how many women access their site every year. And so for the last 15 years, I think it is every year that’s gone up, that percentage. And so in the last year, 2023, it was 36% of viewers were women.

Kay >> Wow.

Joy >> That’s a lot more than people would ever guess or know about. I teach a class at Dallas Theological Seminary on sexuality and ethics. We just had a talk on this and all the men in the room, the men that want to be pastors or counselors were shocked. They all said, really? I thought this was a men’s issue. So, yes, everybody is surprised when they hear that number.

And there’s a few reasons why I think that this number is increasing. First of all, the porn industry knows this that women are starting to watch more and more. So they’re actually creating specific female friendly options. Think of it like a romance movie. But more graphic. That’s what they’re offering now. And women are loving it. They’re watching more and more of it and they’re getting you hooked. Once you’re hooked, you’re addicted. Your brain changes. They know that they’re going to have you be a customer for the next years. So it’s sad that just the way that they’re now marketing to women because of this.

Kay >> That is really sad. I hate to hear that.

Kay >> Do you think that women hide this more than men do?

Joy >> I do. And especially Christian women. So in the non-Christian circles, it’s a lot more freely talked about where it’s just assumed, oh, you watch porn with your boyfriend. Or it’s more casual conversation.
But in the Christian women circles, it’s rarely talked about. So, for example, if you hear in a sermon sometimes it’ll come up. And that’s rare, too, that porn is even in a sermon. But if it is talked about, it’s normally addressed just to men.

So a pastor might say Hey, men, this is for you. Women, you don’t have to listen right now. We’ll talk about you in a second. But for right now, men, listen up. Let’s talk about porn. So that’s an example we hear all the time. And then even in like recovery ministries, there’s normally like a sex addict group for men. And just now they’re starting to have more options for women. Normally, it was just a betrayal and beyond kind of group for the wives of men addicts. Which is important. That’s really needed work. But we also have to have that option there for the women that are struggling with this issue.

Kay >> Absolutely. So how does porn impact a woman’s relationships with other people, their relationship with God or even how they see themselves?

Joy >> Yes. So even if we look at shame, there’s so much shame around this topic with because no one’s talking about it because we’re women and just because it’s about sexuality, something so personal and intimate.

And so if we go to Scripture and just see in Genesis story what happens when they first are exposed and realize they’re naked, they hide because of this deep shame they have from one another. So they hide, they cover themselves, they run away from each other. And that’s exactly what happens with women struggling with porn. They hide from friends. They keep it a secret. They don’t tell anyone. They hide, if they’re in a relationship or married, they don’t want to tell their spouse.

We actually have women at Authentic Intimacy. We offer a lot of small groups online for women on a variety of topics. But one question that comes up a lot is do I have to tell my husband about this? They don’t even want to bring this to him. They’re afraid how he’s going to respond or what’s going to happen. And so, yeah, there’s a lot of secrecy. And also because maybe they did have bravery to tell one person and it was responded to really negatively. And so like maybe in shock or Wow, I can’t believe you watch that or really you watch porn or they just never bring it up again. There’s silence around the topic. And so those kind of reactions make a woman never want to share again, sadly. And keep the struggle to herself.

Kay >> Yeah, absolutely. I can understand that. Well, how can leaders–and you know most of our audience consists of women who have some sort of leadership position. It doesn’t have to be some large thing. It could be leading a small group. It could be mentoring someone else that’s leading them. It actually could just be as a mother and their children, because this is a topic certainly that they need to deal with. But let’s think about leaders of women particularly. How can they begin a conversation about women struggling with porn so that the women in our congregations or our small groups are or wherever we connect with them can begin speaking to somebody about that, can begin looking for a way out.

Joy >> Yes. So to speak to those leaders. First of all, thanks for watching this video, because that’s your first step. You saw this title. You clicked it. You thought, let me learn more. And education, that is your first step because this issue is rarely talked about. You might not even know that women are struggling. And so thank you for just admitting that Hey, I want to learn more. And watching this video and knowing, too, that if you’re still trying to figure this out and learn more, think about the leaders that you are over so that, like you said, Kay, the small group leaders or maybe the women discipling other women or the youth ministry, those areas people don’t know that this is a topic. And so they have no idea how to begin talking about it, how to help people.

So that first step is educating yourself. And then I would encourage you to educate those leaders in your ministry. So that could look like a one on one kind of conversation. It could look like you’re having a training. It could be going through a small group curriculum together to be educated.

One thing I recommend is, is finding someone to share their story so that they can put a face to this. And, you know, it’s one thing to hear statistics, but to hear someone like me share their story of the struggle. But then also the freedom, which will I’m sure we’ll talk about the healing that comes too. That makes it so much more personable.

And so if you don’t know someone like that, which I’m sure there are people in your ministry, in your churches who have a story like that. But if you don’t know of anyone, I’d be happy to connect. That’s something I’m really passionate about is being that first person. I like to say I go first so others can go second. And what I mean by that is I share my story so that other people then can say, Oh, I’m not alone. Other women are struggling with this too. Like it’s a safe thing. I can come forward. And so I would talk about that.

And one other thing, Kay, too, for the first early steps is admitting your own sexual brokenness as a leader. So a quote that Julie Slattery, she cofounded Authentic Intimacy, that she always says is that we’re all sexually broken. And some people hear that and they think, Huh, well, I don’t have a porn addiction or I’m married and life is great right now. What does this mean? What she’s saying is, we’re all living in this fallen sinful world. None of us know what it means to not have a broken sexuality. And so there must be something you can share out of that brokenness. Whether that’s you struggle with lust or maybe you are married and you actually hate sex. I mean, that’s a form of sexual brokenness. And we have a lot of women in our ministry, in our groups who will admit to that.

So those are just some of the first early steps that a women’s minister or a woman in leadership can do.

Kay >> Those are really good thoughts. And when I think back, I spent ten years leading women’s ministry in churches. It was over the ten years there were two different churches, but only one woman ever came up to me and told me about this struggle and she was already dealing with it. I mean, she already was getting help. She wasn’t asking for help. She was just asking for accountability. She just wanted, felt like I should know, that somebody in the church should know. And I thought that was such a brave thing that she did. But that just shows you how little the conversation is out there. And I certainly never talked about it with the group or anything. So I’m sorry I didn’t have your training back then.

Joy >> Yeah. And you know what, Kay, too, as the years go on, it’s becoming more of an issue. And so I’m sure other women were struggling back then too, and didn’t tell you. But there’s also research saying that the younger generations now, more and more of them are struggling. So now maybe the younger generations, it’s more relevant than it was maybe back then when you were in those positions. But as a leader, a lot of church leaders say to me, I’m afraid to bring it up. I’m afraid to open that can of worms is a quote we hear a lot because they say, what if we don’t have the resources? What if we can’t help them? What if we don’t know what to do?

And so what I say to them is, the issues are already there, people are just struggling in silence. So if you bring it up, nothing is going to change. They’re still struggling but then what you can do to kind of prepare for that is to educate yourself and to provide a list of resources. So find resources now before someone comes to you, like a counselor. I recommend a certified sex therapist, a Christian sex therapist to help. Or what books are out there, what resources, support groups, recovery groups, can you provide to this person so that you’re not empty handed if they do come to you? And that kind of helps them feel a little more prepared, the leaders, for if someone does bring this up.

Kay >> And speaking of that, can you give us a list of some educational material, possibly other ministries, that would help? We’ll certainly let them know about your ministry later before we shut down. But can you give some sort of list that they can download if they’re interested?

Joy >> Yeah. I also want to mention, Kay, how important this is for parents. And I’m going to share a few resources for the parents because the average age of first exposure is 7 to 11. Some research says 7, some says 11. So that means if you’re not talking to your kid about pornography and they’re already 7 to 11, you’ve got to start, you’re missing the boat here. Because that means younger ages of kids, if that’s the average, are seeing this.

And so kids are seeing it from their friends. They’re even finding it in their own home accidentally clicking on an ad or something pops up. It’s crazy, Kay, even on YouTube like the kid friendly app version. I had a parent email in and say Oh my goodness, I thought that was safe and my kid somehow was watching porn and I saw them, just from accidentally clicking on it. It was like a five year old boy and he wasn’t searching it out. The porn industry is horrible and they know if they can get to those kids, then they’re going to have clients for years, for decades. So it’s disgusting.

Kay >> Yes

Joy >> So what I’d say to parents here are a few resources to kind of start those conversations. So the Birds & Bees is a great ministry that has an e-course/videos. You could play for like a small group setting so you can watch it on your own or with a group and they teach you how to just start having these conversations about sex with your kids. Because so much of this goes back to a lack of a sex education in the home where parents aren’t talking about sex. And if they’re not talking about it, then the kid, when they first see porn they don’t know, Oh, Mom and Dad’s a safe person for me to run to and tell them that I just found this, that I discovered it. So helping parents navigate those conversations is really important.

Another ministry is called Defend Young Minds, and they have some great books where you can actually read it with your kid in kid friendly terms. So it’s called Good Pictures. Bad Pictures. Instead of calling it porn, it helps teach your kid. Oh, that picture is bad or this picture is good and it helps them to have language so that when they see this on the bus, a person shows them porn on the bus, a kid, they can go to mommy and say, hey, mommy, on the bus, someone showed me this bad picture. They were naked.

They’ll use terms like that. So that’s just the first thing that comes to mind.

Joy >> And then for adults who are struggling, there’s a lot of great ministries. So Pure Desire has some groups, recovery groups. She Recovery is another one for women specifically. And then our site, Authentic Intimacy. We talk big picture sexuality in general, but we also have more specific groups for women on this topic.

Kay >> Thank you. I know that’ll be very, very helpful to many women out there. Thanks, Joy, for that.

Kay >> Well, tell me, is the struggle different for women than it is for men with porn?

Joy >> Yeah, so people ask this and it’s hard to tell because there needs to be more research done on the actual brain. But there are some differences I noticed that I can share. So, for example, women are more likely to start with erotica, which is called a soft porn. And some people don’t even think to consider it porn like when 50 Shades of Gray came out, that book. I know that was a few years back, but there has been so many new books come out and you’ll hear and see Christian women reading them all the time, not thinking anything is wrong with it.

But we believe that the same thing happening in your brain reading erotica is the same thing happening when you’re watching pornography. You get that dopamine rush. Your body is physically reacting to it. And so that’s kind of a difference between men and women. Women often start more likely with that soft porn and work their way to maybe more harder just like drugs. You get used to it. You get desensitized. The same with pornography.

I actually had a woman in one of my support groups that I was leading she started just by reading her grandma’s erotica that she had. She had no idea it was wrong. Actually, the grandma gave her a copy of the book, didn’t think it was a problem. Flash forward years later, here she is in my recovery group. She said it got so bad, she started joining online chat rooms and then met up with a guy in person. And so women are actually more likely than men to do that, to want to meet up in person with somebody and have a sexual encounter. So that’s one of the differences.

One of the surprising things is historically in the past men used to watch more abusive porn than women. But we’re seeing now that women are actually watching more abusive porn. And what’s sad about it is the research is saying they’re doing it as a way to cope with their own sexual trauma. Since more women have experienced rape and sexual assault and abuse, they’re actually wanting to watch the same porn, like their experience, as a form of coping. Which I know some people hear that and they’re like, well, that doesn’t make any sense.

But yeah, that’s kind of a trend we’re seeing.

Kay >> What about shame for women? Is that any different, particularly Christian women? I would think that there would be a lot of shame involved in it, which is probably one reason they don’t talk about it.

Joy >> Yes. So definitely a lot of shame in Christian women. I just interviewed Curt Thompson. He wrote The Soul of Shame. I kind of consider him like the Shame expert. And I actually asked him that question. I said, Have you seen a difference in sexual shame between men and women? And his response was interesting. He said that both, he thinks both equally just experience intense amounts of sexual shame, but maybe that the women just keep the issue more to themselves than maybe men do, was his comments. I found that fascinating. And that’s a great book, too, The Soul of Shame. If you want to learn more about shame.

Kay >> Great. Thank you. Well, let’s think about discipleship areas. Whether you’re the minister to women in a church or small group leader or you’re mentoring someone or possibly it’s just a friend that you’re advising, how do you disciple them? What are some things that you can do as you move forward with someone who wants some help, and hopefully is getting help other places, maybe professional help, but needs a friend to walk alongside her. How would you do that? How would you approach that?

Joy >> Yes. Thank you to those women who want to do this. I needed that person. And just to share a little bit of how this worked in my life. I was a college student when all of this happened and I went to a college ministry event with CRU and heard another woman, a woman leader share her story. And she said she was struggling with pornography and habitual masturbation. And Kay, I had never heard a woman, let alone a Christian woman, say either of those words. And so I went up to her afterwards and told her I was struggling and just being able to say me, too, and knowing I’m not alone was so healing. Took away a lot of the shame in the beginning of my recovery journey.

And so that was a huge first step. And then I started meeting one on one just weekly at Panera with another woman from my church. And we didn’t know of any books that existed or any resources. We would just read the Bible at Panera and talk about my struggle. And it was so life changing to feel known and loved and seen and she never judged me. I would come to her and say, Oh, I messed up last night and I watched it again. Or I would come to her and say, You know, I’m just so tired. I don’t even know if I want to continue recovery, it’s just so draining. That honesty I would share with her. And she created that safe space where I could share that with her.

Sometimes women might not feel that safe. You want it to be this safe space. And I’d be honest like that, and she would just listen and ask great questions and give empathy. And occasionally she would share her story too in her struggles. But she was just so great at this. And so that’s just an example of how it worked in my life.

And so a few other things, some helpful tips for these women leaders. Help this woman get to the root issues of her struggle, not just simply focusing on behavior management. So what I mean by that is sometimes you hear people say, and they mean it in a loving way, but they’ll say something like, Oh, can’t you just stop watching it? Like, why are you watching it? And sure, I mean, a woman could decide, I’m just going to stop watching it, but she’ll just turn to food when she’s lonely. And then now she has a binge eating problem. Or she’ll turn to hookups, something else. And so you really have to get to that root issue and figure out what is going on there.

I have a few others. You want me to share some more ideas, too?

Kay >> Absolutely. Yes. I mean, whatever else you can tell us would be really, really helpful.

Joy >> OK, great. Yes. Because sometimes I know this can for a person, a leader listening, this might feel like a lot. (laughter)

Kay >> It may and it may take a while for her to educate herself and she may need to watch this or listen to this podcast a number of times. And, you know, just begin. I would just say begin. But you have a place to go now. Once you have that person, you can come back to this and listen to all that Joy has to say. But don’t feel overwhelmed.

Joy >> Yes.

Joy >> That’s a good message of hope, Kay, too. Because, yeah, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed by the amount of pain as you’re walking through a woman with something like this because there are so many layers.

And on that root issue piece, like helping her unpack, maybe she has a daddy issue. Maybe she had childhood sexual trauma. There’s just so many things that could be around this porn struggle. And it’ll take a while to get to those. And you aren’t, maybe you’re not a counselor, and that’s OK, too. You’re not trying to be a counselor here, but really just help, ask questions, encourage, point her in the right direction.

A few other things that you could do, and something we’ve noticed at Authentic Intimacy, is really help her to grow in her relationship with God. So much of this is actually an intimacy issue. And I want to unpack that because this is really important for us as Christians. Is we tend to think it’s a porn issue. But really, this woman has an intimacy issue. She’s trying to feel loved. She’s trying to feel connected. And so maybe her intimacy with God, maybe she doesn’t really believe he is who he says he is. She doesn’t believe he’s good. She doesn’t trust him.

I know for me, I didn’t believe God could actually meet my needs to be loved and my desires to feel wanted and known. And so the more I spent time reading his word and worshiping him at church, just it takes time. But that just helped me tremendously on my freedom journey because that intimacy with God is just next level, nothing on this earth. And I tell women that not even a husband, because so many, especially single women, young women, want to be married. I say, you know, that’s not going to fix your porn problem. Marriage is not going to fix your porn problem. Intimacy with God is so key.

Kay >> That’s really helpful. And that’s something that any woman can do for another woman, is to help her turn to God, and talk about the Bible together and talk about the Lord and encourage her to delve deeper into the scriptures and spend more time there. Spend more time with God. I think that’s really good.

Anything else that you want to add?

Joy >> Yes. About kind of what you just said made me think about how recovery is a journey and so it’s a daily act of surrendering to God. And so helping that woman see this not as something that could happen overnight. You’re really investing in this woman, investing in your relationship with her and working on gaining that trust, helping her feel safe and helping her realize that this is a journey. It’s going to take time and patience, especially if it has become an addiction in her life. Her brain has changed. Porn changes the structure of your brain, as crazy as it sounds. So helping her rebuild those pathways.

Joy >> And then one other thing, just big picture, too, is helping her understand God’s design for sexuality. And if we go back to what we talked about with parents not talking to their kids about sex, those are the people who are now grown up who didn’t have a sex education didn’t have a safe place to talk about this.

And so there’s a lot of shame around a woman’s sexuality. Many women just feel shame for even having desires or have questions, curiosities. And so that keeps them, that shame keeps them in a cycle where they’re stuck. So, for example, they watch porn, they feel shame. Then they think they’re too far gone for God to love them, that they’re stuck here forever. T hey turn back to porn and it’s called the shame cycle. And I just believe that’s one of the key routes that keep them stuck. So helping a woman to kind of break free from that shame cycle is really important.

Kay >> I think those are all really, really good suggestions. And most of that, you know, except for maybe about getting to the root issue that may really need somebody who has a little bit better counseling background or understands those things, any woman can do these other things. Help somebody become more intimate with God, help them understand God’s design for sexuality, and help them understand just that daily surrender to God.

I remember when years ago, I had a woman come to me and she just wanted a mentor and it just scared me to death. I mean, that much scared me to death. I can totally understand how somebody could feel fearful of doing this because you don’t feel qualified. You don’t feel like you know enough. You know, I was maybe 40, but I still just didn’t feel qualified to mentor. That just sounded too heavy, too much responsibility. You know, it really did scare me. And I don’t want women to feel this way because God can qualify you to do this. You’re just sharing your own life. If you’re walking with the Lord, if you are in his Word, if you’re surrendering to him every day, you just share that, your own walk with the Lord, with somebody else.

Joy >> That’s so true. Those times at Panera, that is where I can look back and say, hey, that was so life changing.

And yeah, she wasn’t a counselor. She didn’t have training. We were just reading the Bible and talking, and she was asking questions. And so, yeah, any woman who is solid in their faith and pursuing Jesus can do that.

Kay >> Right. That’s great.

So, Joy, tell us more about what your ministry offers that may be of help to the leaders out there as they seek to minister to others and also help the women who are struggling with porn who may be listening to this conversation.

Joy >> Yeah. Thanks, Kay. Thanks for inviting me to do that. And gosh, I’m just so passionate. I just love our ministry so much. In 2020 we launched a leader brand called Sexual Discipleship. It’s under our big picture, Authentic Intimacy. And it’s Sexual Discipleship. That’s where we train our leaders on how to have these conversations. On what does the Bible say about sexuality. We have pastors, leaders, small group leaders, lay leaders, we have some high school teachers at some Christian schools, everybody who just is getting these questions because in today’s day and age, you can’t avoid questions about sexuality in ministry.

And really so many people are leaving the church because about different topics around sexuality. If people don’t know how to talk about them, that’s a problem. We have cohorts, e-courses, training materials to help leaders know how to navigate these conversations around sexuality. And so then at Authentic Intimacy, that’s where we more have resources for women and men, married and single, who are struggling on their journey, either not knowing what God’s Word says, maybe it’s a porn addiction, maybe there was an affair in their marriage. Maybe there’s grief as a widow lost her husband and doesn’t know what to do with her sexuality. Maybe a single woman that’s saying, well, what does it mean to be single and sexually whole? Lots of questions like that. Some of our common ones. Actually, Kay, our most read blog is called Is Masturbation A Sin?

Kay >> Really?

Joy >> Out of all of our topics, that is the number one read blog every year. It’s crazy. People are asking that question. You should do an episode on that.

So those are some of the things we do blogs, podcasts and online groups at Authentic Intimacy.

Kay >> And what is the website for that?

Joy >> Yes. It’s AuthenticIntimacy.com. And then the leader platform is SexualDiscipleship.com. And both of them are membership communities, meaning you pay a monthly or yearly fee and that gives you access to everything. Access to me, I meet one on one with members and leaders and answer questions and access to Julie Slattery, the co-founder. We have office hours where leaders can come and say Hey, someone asked this question at church and I’ve no idea how to respond. What would you do? And they get to ask Julie that and hear her response.

It’s been really fun to partner alongside with churches and ministries on this journey and just help people navigate because there are tough questions out there. People are asking tough questions and to give people that safe space to ask and find answers.

Kay >> And I assume you have some resources for parents as well on your website.

Joy >> We do. Yes.

Kay >> Great. Thank you, Joy, for joining us. This has been a very helpful conversation, and particularly I believe it can really be helpful to some leaders out there who are wondering what to do about this. And churches need to start facing this problem and not just ignoring it. I think this is really important. I appreciate so much the work you’re doing. I just really applaud you for tackling this and your heart for people who are dealing with this. Thank you so much for joining us.

Joy >> Thanks, Kay. And thank you leaders for listening. Really, even if you just mentioned the words pornography and women in a small group, in a sermon, anywhere, and someone hears that and then they feel safe and can come share their story and ask for help, that’s a game changer. So thank you for doing that and educating yourself on this topic.

Kay >> That’s a great word. Well, we have many other resources on BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. And we have other resources on Caring Well for others. And that’s where you’ll find this. That’s where you’ll find Joy’s and my conversation about rape culture. And we invite you to go there and just browse around, particularly in the Caring Well section if you’re looking for ways to care for those whom you love, the people that are under you, the people whom you serve and minister to.

Thanks for listening to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast. You can find more podcast episodes and other resources for leaders by going to Beyondordinarywomen.org.